Mindbloom's CEO Dylan Beynon: How ketamine-assisted therapy treats anxiety and depression

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Greg Kubin: [00:00:00] So I am on my way to my ketamine therapy session. I feel like I've had some anxiety recently around work, around coronavirus and the uncertainty there

Looking forward to kind of taking a big step back thinking about anxiety and how I can manage it. And go in with an open mind.

The only thing I'm not looking forward to are the needles. I don't like needles.

Welcome to Business Trip, where we dig into the most promising companies in psychedelics. I'm your host, Greg Kubin. In episode one, we're going to talk to Dylan Beynon, the founder and CEO of Mindbloom, which is a mental health and wellbeing company. Mine bloom opened their first ketamine clinic in New York city in early 2020. 

Dylan Beynon: [00:00:52] Ketamine market today it's growing really quickly and it had some investors were like Dylan, when you came to us, this seems like a crazy idea. This isn't like late 2018 or like 2019. And now, like, it doesn't even seem that original. So it's definitely moving very quick quickly, 

Greg Kubin: [00:01:05] But before we start the interview, I want to share why we're working on this podcast.

So for thousands of years, psychedelics have been used in sacred rituals by indigenous cultures. But today in Western culture, we're finding that psychedelic therapy can treat some of society's biggest mental health challenges. We're talking about depression, anxiety, PTSD, addiction, potentially even Alzheimer's.

This has opened the door for a new crop of entrepreneurs that are building businesses, ranging from biotech companies that are developing novel compounds to clinics and retreats for healing. And a psychedelic industry of passionate and thoughtful people is forming. But mixing psychedelics and capitalism is a delicate combination.

I'm interested to know, how do you build a successful psychedelic company and how will companies balance healing people, but also meeting investor returns? We'll explore these topics as I interview founders of psychedelic companies in each episode.

Today's episode  features, Mindbloom, who's currently offering ketamine assisted therapy to treat anxiety and depression. Ketamine historically has been used in medicine as an anesthetic. But more recently, the mental health community is finding it as two major therapeutic benefits. First it's a disassociative when administered at a higher dose, which basically means that you temporarily lose your sense of self and your surroundings.

And second, ketamine creates new neural pathways in the brain and opens what's called the neuroplastic window. That makes your thinking more malleable. So when combined with psychotherapy where you're talking with a therapist, these conditions appear to be a really effective way to change your perspective to overcome anxiety and depression.

From a business model perspective, mind bloom is a platform that services medical practices that are independently owned and operated. And Mindbloom plans to leverage technology, to bring the cost of their treatments down over time.

Ah, and did I mention, I participated in a ketamine treatment at mind bloom I'll share my firsthand experience throughout the episode. So stay tuned for that. And now to the interview with Dylan Beynon, the founder of Mindbloom. So, yeah, why don't we get into the actual business of Mindbloom would love to know the first year in business.

Like how did you put this thing together? How did this come to be? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:03:48] Yeah, I have a lot of family. That's just riddled with really serious mental illness. I lost my mother to acute, uh, addiction, schizophrenia, uh, growing up. And I knew that what we're seeing as the destabilization of mental health care, but we're still really like the first or second inning when it comes to it.

Right? Talk therapies recently become destigmatized a yoga meditation are exploding in popularity. We're beginning to really push this conversation of, well, how do we live in the wealthiest most progressive society that's ever existed? The freest society, but we saw major, major issues societaly and people are deeply unhappy.

Something has to change here. Uh, and so I wanted to have that problem and I, I kept coming back to psychedelic medicine as the thing that was most impactful for me and my emotional and psychological and just emotional wellbeing development over the past 10 years. And the thing that I thought that's sort of already here, just not evenly distributed.

The thing that people will be doing in the future, especially as I had been following for a while last several years, all that incredible work that MAPS and these other trailblazers have done to really help bring these things to the public in a smart, safe, legal, effective way to help people access them.

Um, so as I was thinking about this, I was actually a lunch with my personalized medicine doctor here in New York. He's a close friend of mine and was telling him this. And he blew my mind when even though I had been, um, um, like donating, following MAPS MAPS for awhile. And had been, you know, really thought that I was like at the forefront of understanding what was going on in psychedelic therapy.

He blew my mind when he told me that he had been working with ketamine therapy in his practice and that there were these, um, growing sort of cottage industry of ketamine clinics who were helping people with depression and mood disorders using ketamine. Um, so like I said, I've been suffering from some anxiety and I became a patient myself and my first experience with it

was just as profound as other experiences I've had. And I thought, wow, here's a psychedelic medicine that's available today that could help a lot of people. But it's not that approachable, scary, unknown. Um, you know, it's, in some ways has a bad reputation. It's really expensive. Ketamine therapy is like $600 to $1,200 a session on average.

Um, and the experience, uh, based on what I've seen and from heard from other, other patients and clients is generally very, very clinical. Um, So here's an opportunity to, uh, bring a, a real, um, sort of inspired hospitality mindsets to elevating the experience and using technology to increasing access. Um, so that was the Genesis of the idea and the next step is okay.

Um, are there clinicians out there to partner with? Who, um, you know would actually do the treatment, design the protocols who I could help support with the work I know how to do. As a tech entrepreneur to help them do their work in the world, which is the real work. Right. 

Greg Kubin: [00:06:52] So I had my first ketamine treatment at Mindbloom three days ago, and it was powerful.

It allowed me to explore my anxiety in a safe space, but it also kind of felt like a fleeting dream where I had these memories and emotions and thoughts kind of rush to my head. And so I know that you've talked about utilizing ketamine therapy and your own experience, so would love to know, you know, what your own experience has been like with the medicine.

Dylan Beynon: [00:07:19] Hmm. And my experiences have been really profound. Uh, I've been using a psychedelic medicine for about a decade and it's been one of the most transformational practices that I've had in my emotional and psychological and like ontological development over that time period. When I first experienced ketamine, maybe similar to what you just said.

I had it just as profound of experiences have had on a range of other serotonin-genic psychedelic medicines, uh, to your point about the fleeting ephemeral, uh, feelings and, and some of the memories, um, ketamine does act on your glutamate system, right? Uh, which largely regulates your memory. 

Greg Kubin: [00:08:01] Let me break this down for you.

Many psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin, primarily act upon serotonin, a neurotransmitter that contributes to feelings of wellbeing and happiness. Ketamine, primarily modifies the activity of glutamate, a different neurotransmitter in the brain, which makes neurons more active and more likely to form new connections.

Dylan Beynon: [00:08:25] And so it can feel oftentimes very dreamlike, uh, one of the things that we do at mindbloom. And that I do personally, which is, you know, a hallmark of a lot of psychedelic therapy protocols and best practices of what people are doing for a long time is journal. And I think in particular with ketamine, uh, more so maybe than any other site of medicine, because of those sort of fleeting feelings and memories journaling right after, uh, really helps solidify those memories, um, and sort of store them from like working memory to longterm memory.

Uh, it's sort of like a dream journal. So I don't know if you've ever kept a dream journal. I hadn't, until I, uh, um, had done ketamine therapy and started journaling afterwards, uh, it really helps solidify those memories and gives them, gives people something to like grab onto. It's almost like you have all these threads and it coalesces into an actual ball of yarn that you can then unpack later.

Greg Kubin: [00:09:18] Let's talk about ketamine as a way to address anxiety and depression. Can you share, you know, what it does to the brain and, and why ketamine therapy is effective? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:09:29] Yeah, absolutely. Uh, first and foremost, what am I clear that I'm not a clinician or a doctor or psychiatrist, um, or anything more than an amateur hobby, a hobbiest scientist, and don't want anyone to think I am.

Um, but I am a tech entrepreneur and a ketamine patient myself. Um, so I can tell you what I do know about the neuroscience. Ketamine upregulates what's called brain derived neurotrophic factor BDNF. Uh, this is a protein similar to like, um, that's similar effects to say like HGH human growth hormone, but in the brain.

So it induces synaptogenesis. This is the creation of new synapses or connections in the brain.

Greg Kubin: [00:10:08] If you didn't catch that, B D N F stands for brain derived neurotropic factor and is protein that grows new neurons and synapses in the brain. It's basically miracle grow for your brain as psychiatrist, John Rady put it. Exercise meditation and deep sleep, all increase BDNF.

So do psychedelics. 

Dylan Beynon: [00:10:33] Fundamentally as people have these ruminative neural pathways, whether that's depression or addiction, um, or anxiety that gets built and reinforced over time, um, you know, sort of like, um, I think of the analogy that our medical director, Dr. Casey Paleos is, talks about is, uh, like snow from skiers, like in, in a, in a snowbank, um, When BDNF is up regulated, uh, it allows the brain form new healthier neural pathways and connections.

So, um, one of the things that's really fascinating is, uh, the medical literature shows that if you give somebody ketamine and a complete clinical setting with even no psychedelic medicine container or therapy around it, You just essentially inject them with ketamine uh, they're still pretty significant 

improvements to people it's like 70 to 80% of people have marked improvements in their symptoms. I can just because the upregulation of BDNF will kick them out of these neuropathways in the house form healthier ones, probably in like a three to 14 day. A window of neuroplasticity after each session.

And so when you give people that medicine in a container where you're actually helping them make sense of it, interpret those experiences and go in with intentions and work on them, um, and then create a plan to integrate those experiences, leveraging that. Neuroplastic state where their brain is creating new connections.

Um, really helping them get out of those rheumatoid pathways and then build healthier new ones that stick and last. 

Greg Kubin: [00:12:04] So is there a target number of sessions that a patient is going through with Mindbloom ? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:12:11] Yeah. So, so Minbloom are right 

now, the clinician's protocol is a four session program. Um, generally every one to two weeks for an initial program.

And if somebody does a, one of the subsequent programs, um, then that it could be every like two to four weeks per session. A big reason that it's four sessions other than that's backed by a little medical literature, about four to six sessions, um, is that it's helping people really leverage this three to 14 day neuroplastic window where they're able to, um, more readily build.

Synaptic connections, um, and, uh, and, and build new neural pathways. Uh, so with mindbloom's programs every sessions were builds on the last, uh, and, and is a creative, you know, throughout this like four session program.

Greg Kubin: [00:12:59] Greg here, I'd like to share a bit about my ketamine therapy experience at Mindbloom.

Here's how it went down. First, I had to qualify for treatment. So I filled out a questionnaire on their website and had a 30 minute video consultation over zoom with a Mindbloom practitioner. I shared the anxiety that I've been experiencing lately, which honestly has been heightened by the onset of coronavirus.

I was approved for treatment and scheduled my ketamine session for a few days later, I was also told to set an intention for the session. My intention was about feeling more comfortable when I'm not fully in control and surrendering to the world around me. On the day of my treatment, I arrived at their nomad office on an empty stomach.

After a brief conversation with the clinician, I was moved to the treatment room. The setting was super chill. I sat in a zero gravity chair, which tilts back. So I felt like I was floating. I was covered in a weighted blanket and I put on an eye mask and headphones, the clinician then administered the dose through an intramuscular shot in my left arm, which was a pretty painless prick.

The first three minutes felt like a rocket ship lift off. It was a bit intense as my heart pounded and lots of thoughts and feelings raced through my head, but I breathe deeply through it and listened to a seven minute recording by Sam Harris, the neuroscientist and philosopher about the meaning of life.

The audio then changed to this ethereal track. Like

here are some of the things I experienced. I felt calm, at peace with myself and the world around me. I considered big life choices. Like if, and when I want to have kids, I felt a sense of unity and had this vision of people working in psychedelics all working together. I felt creative and I visualized a giant brain covered in picket signs that were labeled with important life to do is like doing my taxes.

I also felt trippy. At one point I felt like a giant block of cheese. The journey took an hour and afterwards I was escorted to the integration room and journaled about my experience. 

So I just finished my session. And I'm an integration room feeling really calm, kind of blissed out, writing down my reflections in my journal, which I want to make sure I capture because a lot of these memories can be fleeting.

It was a really powerful experience. I retrieved memories. I thought about some things that I think have been giving me some sense of anxiety. I also am left thinking about how do I reenter the world calmly. And the best answer that I have right now is to be present. I don't think in the future about what could be and things that can go wrong.

Don't think about the past, about decisions that I made, that I may regret. Just be.

There are other psychedelics that can be used also to address some of these issues, things like anxiety and depression, such as LSD or psilocybin. When do you use ketamine versus those other medicines or substances? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:16:48] Ketamine is the only, uh, prescribable, uh, psychedelic medicine available today. Um, so I've had my life utterly transformed, starting with, uh, MDMA therapy, uh, about a decade ago, June of 2009.

And I've had really powerful experiences with other psychedelic medicines and, um, Super excited for the day when these medicines become available to more people. And I think we're even, I'm even excited personally for when these medicines are available as an elective medicine, hopefully one day in the future, not just for people really suffering or battling mood disorders, like anxiety or depression or PTSD.

Um, but right now, ketamine is legal prescribable here and available to people. 

Greg Kubin: [00:17:33] Ketamine 

is a schedule three substance, which makes it the only psychedelic that can be legally prescribed in the United States today.  Meanwhile, LSD, psilocybin  mushrooms and MDMA are schedule one substances, which means they are not prescribable since the DEA defines them as having no medical use and is highly addictive.

But this could all change in the next few years as the food and drug administration has given a handful of psychedelic assisted treatments, breakthrough therapy status, which expedites that review process. The space initially was a space that you rented out like a temporary space. And now you're building a more dedicated one.

So it was the idea to. Kind of test out your hypothesis in this temporary space and make sure you know, what you're building towards and use it as like a testing ground. 

Dylan Beynon: [00:18:24] This first space is in a sort of medical, uh, coworking space. Uh we've um, you know, taken out several rooms and. And, you know, really hand designed to create like an elevate experience with like signature touchpoints throughout the process.

It sort of feels like a hospitality experience, uh, and are currently designing a 4,000 square foot state of the art flagship space. We're gonna be launching later this year. 

Greg Kubin: [00:18:48] So you've raised a bit of money so far. And what's your plan there? Are you going to go raise venture and grow beyond just this one space.

Dylan Beynon: [00:18:59] So our first base is already profitable on the space, uh, growing, uh, you know, very quickly, almost more quickly than we can, and the clinicians can handle at this point. Uh, so we're both, you know, expanding to a much larger space that will allow us to create a much more elevated experience for clients here in New York.

Um, and, and do some other really special things that the team's excited about. Uh, as well as to begin expanding into other States.

Greg Kubin: [00:19:26] The existing ketamine therapy, or at least historically costs $600 up. So we're upwards of a thousand dollars right now, mindbloom is about $250 a session. How are you able to bring those costs down?

Dylan Beynon: [00:19:40] Yeah, so there's a couple of ways. Um, One is we are, we have a technology platform. Um, you know, I'm a tech entrepreneur. And, uh, I think, I don't know if you saw the recent, um, um, uh, Bill Gates documentary on Netflix, but he mentions that, you know, Everything. He's a hammer and everything looks like a nail they have.

And that's how do we solve this with technology? And so that's definitely a big component of what we're doing is building software. We have a platform now that helps streamline a lot of the process and adds elements of telemedicine and teletherapy to the platform, uh, which helps bring down costs.

Greg Kubin: [00:20:21] After the COVID-19 pandemic hit the U S mine, bloom has been able to provide virtual ketamine sessions because rules around teletherapy have temporarily changed. This means that ketamine in pill form is delivered to patients to take at home and they still get the support from a clinician both before and after the experience. It remains to be determined if regulators will permit this delivery model after the pandemic, what has your experience been like pitching investors? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:20:52] Um, So it's been pretty easy so far, but I think as we, as we grow, it's going to probably become more challenging. Um, I'm lucky that I had, um, some friends, friends, and previous investors in my last company who were really passionate about they're psychedelic medicine experiences and how transformational they've been in there, your life, um, that sort of seeded the company.

Uh, and then a couple of VC funds sort of piled in. So I raised the first round, um, without. You know, a pitch deck or, or sort of, um, any like real process. Um, but, uh, I can, you know, I can, I can give you more information on that and like six months. Okay. In process now. Yeah. We're going to be raising another round to fund expansion soon.

Greg Kubin: [00:21:36] How big. Is this market?

Dylan Beynon: [00:21:40] I think the market is how many people today. At least if you look at what the clinicians are serving today, have depression or anxiety, um, and or how many people are going to therapy and have these symptoms, depression, or anxiety, even if they're not yet diagnosed, but have those symptoms and could be diagnosed.

Um, How big is the market for like mental wellbeing? Um, so the ketamine market today, I think it's, um, I mean, there's been trouble gathering data on it. Um, it's growing really quickly. And even if you just like follow the press since like have launched this company, uh, it's astounding that's investors were like Dylan.

When you came to us, it seemed like a crazy idea. This isn't like late 2018, early 2019. And now like doesn't even seem that original. Um, so definitely and moving very quickly. Um, but I think in order to actually create and grow the market, uh, it's the focus on. How do you make these medicines approachable so that they're not scary and intimidating?

Uh, ketamine is a pretty gentle experience. Um, and it's something that, you know, they're having, this has been like a single adverse event, or even like negative experience in the space to date, uh, as well as increasing access by making it more affordable. I mean, if, if it's a thousand dollars a session, which I think even like a few years ago, it was probably close to what the average was.

Um, even though the price is coming down over time. Yeah, that puts it out of reach for a lot of people who need it. 

Greg Kubin: [00:23:03] So, will there be a point where this will be accessible to people, you know, whether it's through insurance or just at a low enough price point. 

Dylan Beynon: [00:23:11] Yeah. Well, we think so one of the ways that we're trying to push that forward is by collecting a lot of outcomes, data.

On how do people's symptoms of depression or anxiety as well as measures of like meaning and purpose and connection, uh, which like official measures and scales and the national Institute of mental health, how do they track over time? And so every day there's more like research. There's more data there, more client stories and more like actual outcomes, data demonstrating that this is, uh, helping people achieve like long lasting relief.

Uh, and that is how we can help get insurance and, uh, employers to pick this up and cover it, which would really help to continue driving down the cost for people. 

Greg Kubin: [00:23:52] What keeps you up at night? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:23:55] What keeps us up at night is. Is the idea of like a patient or clients having a really adverse outcome. So we are really, really excessive about, you know, client's safety.

Um, and, you know, as, as an entrepreneur, sometimes that can feel, um, tough. You know, my last company was in FinTech and so like I thought I understood like regulation and like, the burden or the challenge of having to sort of go slow to go fast and be really thoughtful. But healthcare is a whole different animal.

And, you know, we just talk about putting clients first, you know, like all day up and down. Um, so that's definitely the thing that worries us most. No, that worries us, but that's the thing that keeps me up at night. 

Greg Kubin: [00:24:36] Does ketamine have addictive properties? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:24:40] So there haven't been instances, uh, that we've been able to find, uh, people developing a dependency on ketamine in a clinical environment.

Um, and oftentimes, uh, we'll even have clients. Cause everyone goes to like informed consent process where they read about this and they come out of it saying, how could you get addicted to this? This is like something I'd want to use as a, as a tool or medicine, but not something I necessarily want to do all the time.

Um, so most cases. Potentially all cases of addiction that have been, or dependency that, um, have occurred are usually people who have like an unfettered access to the medicine. So, um, you know, people in the black market, um, potentially a hospital or veterinary workers who have access to medical grade, pharmaceutical ketamine, and already have other addiction issues going on.

Um, but part of our technology platform is, um, which I think you've probably have used now, um, monitoring people's potential for side effects, facts and dependency development throughout the process. Um, the clinicians are getting information can jump in front of that. If something like that ever happened.

Greg Kubin: [00:25:49] What skills do you see needed in this space? 

Dylan Beynon: [00:25:54] Thoughtfulness. Thoughtfulness. Um, yeah, it's I think I know when I got started getting into the space, um, um, there were definitely people in the space who were an expressed, like nervousness of, um, you know, founders or people who haven't spent their careers in academia or science research, you know, coming in and starting to build things around this space.

And there's something I always like totally understood because I'm like a, also nervous about it and not just someone in it, but I care so much about the cause has been such a huge part of my life that if something were to set the cause back, uh, that would be cataclysmic. Um, and cause I, you know, like you, I know how powerful these medicines can be to help millions and millions of people like really alleviate their suffering and help really create a better world through them.

Um, So I think anybody who comes into this space, both because of just the space  and how sort of fragile it is and how early it is as well as that it's healthcare and healthcare really is a whole different animal, um, that a lot of extreme thoughtfulness of how to approach it and how to interact with the people in the space, uh, is, is really necessary.

Greg Kubin: [00:27:09] Your focus right now is really medicinal. Right. But within the psychedelic world, there are kind of a lot of subcultures and groups and sort of an underground community that exists. Do you interact with those communities? Are you just staying in your lane? You know, there's organizations like MAPS, there's nonprofits, like where do you, where do you see yourself fitting into the landscape?

Dylan Beynon: [00:27:33] We just try, really try to stay laser focused on how do we help our clinicians and how do we help create technology and design and content to help the clients? Um, I mean, we do spend time with other people in the community, but I guess we don't really think a ton about how we plug into the greater community other than, um, making sure that the approach and how we're speaking about it is something that people who have been doing this for a long time, like, like, like our medical director, who's a principal investigator and you know, his friends and colleagues over at maps and other people in the space, you know, they've really trailblazed this.

And so we, you know, keep an open line of communication and are really thoughtful about. What we're saying and how we're saying it to make sure that we're doing everything, not just in the best interest of mindbloom's clients and clinicians, but also the cause, you know, like some people ask me like competitors and like competitors, like I've wanted this to exist in the world for a decade.

Since I experienced it. Like anyone who's helping to bring this to the world and bring this to others as a compatriot and ally. Um, so we try to, you know, be plugged into whatever else is doing, but I mean, there's like a new psychedelic conference every like week now. Right. And we don't go, we are just focused on clinicians and clients.

Um, and I think maybe once we start having, um, some really great outcomes, data and things to share, um, then we are excited to share that with the community and do our part to help spread what we've learned to other people. Um, but right now, I mean, it is still pretty early, you know, we've only facilitated a few hundred sessions.

Um, and so it's just laser focused on how to help people.

Greg Kubin: [00:29:13] Is, is ketamine for your business, like the wedge. And then as the legal framework changes in. You know, as it pertains to other medicines and substances like LSD and MDMA, that you ultimately can provide services based on those medicines. 

Dylan Beynon: [00:29:30] I mean, we don't of his mindbloom is a psychedelic medicine company.

First and foremost, I think about mindbloom is a cutting edge, next generation, mental health and wellbeing platform. It's delivering always science backed treatments. So we'll never do anything. That's not backed by a hundred percent science and literature, um, in both. Beautifully inspired design spaces and online.

Uh, so we're starting with ketamine therapy, not just because it's a psychedelic, but because it's just like the most effective, impactful, powerful medicine that's available today that people don't have access just you.

Greg Kubin: [00:30:04] It just so happens to be a psychedelic, basically. 

Dylan Beynon: [00:30:06] Yeah. And like I said, it's always been a massive part of my life for 10 years, and we're really excited by the incredible work that.

Uh, yeah, our medical director, Casey and the team at MAPS are doing to get MDMA across the finish line and available to people and, you know, a medical setting. Uh, and the incredible orthopedist was psilocybin. Now, a bunch of other companies who are leading clinical trials. Um, but I don't think psychedelic medicine will be the only treatments that we're providing.

Uh, they need things that help people with their. Yeah, overall mental health care and wellbeing is on the table for us. Um, so I mean, I'd like to see mindbloom go is, you know, helping a billion people achieve breakthroughs, um, that fundamentally transform their lives so that they can be better people for themselves and better people.

For their communities and better humans for the world, um, where I see the space going is it's psychedelics specifically. Yeah. I really think it just comes down to, um, how do people create the best experiences that help people get the most out of the treatments? And so I think it's going to be ubiquitous very, very quickly because she said it's medicines work.

We didn't make ketamine.  We didn't invent psychedelic medicine. We're just helping to build a platform that helps these conditions increase access to treatment and to help them get the most out of them. 

Greg Kubin: [00:31:20] All right, Dylan. Well, thank you for joining this episode and I look forward to seeing you guys grow.

Dylan Beynon: [00:31:26] Thank you, Greg. This was a blast. Thanks for having me on.

Greg Kubin: [00:31:33] This is Business Trip, a podcast about psychedelic entrepreneurship. Thanks for listening. And I hope you enjoyed our chat with Dylan from mindbloom, you can find out more about mindbloom by visiting their website at mindbloom.co or on our website at businesstrip.fm. If you liked this episode of Business Trip, you can help us by subscribing to the podcast

and leaving us a comment. We've got more episodes coming out soon, covering the most promising businesses and leaders in psychedelics. 

Venture capital well, it's going to be much more accessible to the psychedelics industry than it was for the cannabis industry. And that's just largely driven by the

regulatory environment, which this is happening. And if you're building an interesting company in psychedelics, send me an email at greg@businesstrip.fm. I'm your host, Greg Kubin. Matias Serebrinsky and I are the executive producers, editorial production and engineering came from Jonathan Davis. Our theme music is by Dorian Love.

And that ethereal track you heard during the ketamine session is called Happiness Frequency by Conscious Sounds 432 Hertz.