From serving medicine to company founder: NANA's CEO and founder Flor Bollini
Greg Kubin: [00:00:00] Welcome to Business Trip, a podcast about psychedelic entrepreneurship. Psychedelic medicine is transforming mental, physical, and spiritual health, and entrepreneurship will be key to expanding access. Business Trip explores the business models and origin stories of the most interesting companies in psychedelics.
[00:00:34] I'm your host Greg Kubin.
[00:00:37] Flor Bollini is a medicine woman turned psychedelic company founder. Flor has served psychedelic medicine to thousands of people. And now she's ready to distill her learnings into NANA, an online platform that guides patients on using psychedelic medicine for holistic healing. Here's how it works.
[00:00:53] After signing up for NANA, you receive a personalized protocol based on an assessment of your mental, emotional, and physical health. You're then partnered with a Nana or guide who leads telemedicine therapy that incorporates ketamine, cannabis and CBD. As well as education to help you prepare for and integrate the psychedelic experience.
[00:01:12] Some of the protocols are uniquely Flor such as the progressive dosing technique to slowly administer the medicine. Her vision is for these protocols to become best practices for clinics. Flor intends for Nana to ultimately include other psychedelics like psilocybin, as well as open her own NANA clinics.
[00:01:29] NANA is still an early stage company. So this episode is a great look at Flor's founding story for philosophy and how she's getting NANA off the ground.
[00:01:40] So how did Flor arrive at this idea? Born in Buenos Aires and raised by a Freudian psychologist, Flor grew up secular and immersed in psychology.
[00:01:49] She started in politics. But that didn't last long.
[00:01:52] Flor Bollini: [00:01:52] I went straight into politics. At the end of 25 I needed to run for a member of parliament and, um, I didn't think that, that was the way I would give my contribution to the world. So, I packed my bags and I left.
[00:02:07] Greg Kubin: [00:02:07] She moves to Berlin and begin studying Jungian psychology, which explores the conscious and subconscious mind.
[00:02:14] It's at this point, she tries Ayahuasca for the first time.
[00:02:17] Flor Bollini: [00:02:17] And forever, my life was changed, um, not only, um, I, discover that I was in my mind, um, I connect with my soul for the first time, but it also put me in this passionate search of ancestral way of healing before the Western world. I moved to India, dove into ayurveda, Africanism, shamanism, all within the context of Western psychology.
[00:02:44] Greg Kubin: [00:02:44] During her travels across the world, Flor goes deeper with Ayahuasca, which delivers a message to her.
[00:02:51] Flor Bollini: [00:02:51] And the plant, you know, it started delivering kind of the same message over and over and over again that I had to step up to show my way, the feminine way the empathic way of how I would like to be served.
[00:03:05] She was like, you want to be a rockstar? This is how a rock star look like. Go and introduce a new field of medicine. You know the truth. Go and take these medicines to the forefront of humanity and go to school, go on, become a priestess of the most ancient divination system in the world that is called IFA. Proclaim a masterpiece of humankind by the UNESCO and learn how to be a professional curadera.
[00:03:30] To work with ancestors. To work with the deities. To really hold space as it's meant. And so I did. You know, and I ask what is next to you? And she goes 5-MeO-DMT. And so
[00:03:43] Greg Kubin: [00:03:43] She starts working with a curandero, the Spanish word for healer, and Flor becomes aware of how the typical ritualistic dose is way too powerful for her.
[00:03:53] Flor Bollini: [00:03:53] And when I got there and I saw him give me a ceremony in such a brutal way, you know, humongous does is really heating people and hurting people. And so based on that since 2013, when they introduced what we call the progressive dosing technique or the handshake where you're introduced with a small dose to introduce the compound and based in that first initial dose, you double to up
[00:04:21] that dose and then into a third dose. So the person can kind of test the waters and get familiar, remove the fears of not knowing rather than to be shoved into a rocket with no reference. You know, that end up like can be a very traumatic experience if you don't let go. And most people don't in the first one
[00:04:43] Greg Kubin: [00:04:43] Flor starts working with a doctor who uses the progressive dosing technique on Navy Seals, suffering from conditions like addiction and depression. She also serves medicine to business people, celebrities, and really anyone interested in healing through the medicine. Through this process, Flor starts developing an understanding around people's ability to heal themselves.
[00:05:02] Flor Bollini: [00:05:02] Our heart gets broken at some point in time and kind of, we carry on collecting wounds as time goes by. And even that becomes our personality to protect us of that. And so with addiction, you see the same, it's kind of, unless the trauma is addressed, you relapse every time that the trauma hits again. So,
[00:05:26] the opportunity that we saw to bring NANA to life is then when ketamine becomes legal and we can basically replace the dissociative experience we were giving with 5-MeO with ketamine and to provide that possibility to wake you up to the reality of who you are. And then implement all the protocols that we've been running underground for over a decade and make it overground.
[00:05:54] Greg Kubin: [00:05:54] And the result is NANA
[00:06:03] I would love for you to paint the picture of what NANA looks like five years from now.
[00:06:08] Flor Bollini: [00:06:08] So our intention is basically as a harm reduction strategy to, to inform, to give access to the whole roadmap of actually what it takes to properly prepare for assess and minister and integrate any psychoactive
[00:06:25] medicine. So everyone - patients, individuals, doctors, psychologists, clinicians can have access to all these vast knowledge that we've collected over decades because it's way more complex, what it really takes to do it well, and it's patiently to do it at scale. What did we have to come up with as companion software?
[00:06:49] These medicines required companions software they can not just be administrated, like cannabis, this industry cannot happen like cannabis because it will really hurt people. So providing and setting the standard in .the, for the whole space of actually what it takes to do this properly is our first intention at NANA.
[00:07:08] And kind of, we are providing these as a software layer when then the Nana or any other practitioner that step up, right. That we are also providing the periphery of courses with those trainings for doctors, for psychologists. So they can get that nuances. So the individuals can do it in your own time and your own way.
[00:07:30] Right. And then. From there. The second part is like, how can we really find the medical experience designing our prototype center that then we franchise. That actually is bringing, you know, contrast therapy, water, other elements that you can completely amplified and glorified what the medical experiences should be.
[00:07:53] Especially with this compound as with ketamine you need the same set and setting that for plants, you need the group dynamic, you need the touch, you need to be holding each other. It's really so important not to make it also a traumatic experience as kind of the clinical experience is designed.
[00:08:09] Greg Kubin: [00:08:09] Well, so it sounds like then your business model has two components. There's the integration as a service, which has the protocol to assess people's emotional and physical and mental wellbeing, the telemedicine educational content, um, decision guidelines around the right compounds. And then you have the franchise model, which.
[00:08:33] People would be able to franchise to create their own clinic or center as you will. How many people have you healed?
[00:08:41] Flor Bollini: [00:08:41] Well, I've, haven't healed anyone. They they've healed themselves.
[00:08:46] Greg Kubin: [00:08:46] How many people, how many healing processes have you helped facilitate?
[00:08:51] Flor Bollini: [00:08:51] Thousands and 4 million informally.
[00:08:55] Greg Kubin: [00:08:55] And so would you say then that through those experiences, you kind of gleaned the best practices and insights and where the have, then been able to distill that down,
[00:09:08] and that is the essence of NANA?
[00:09:10] Flor Bollini: [00:09:10] Yes. And
[00:09:10] I've been doing this in collaboration with and in parallel with this doctor that was running the only clinic in the world on 5-MeO, and, ibogaine combined doing works on Navy seals. And so, working with different demographics, but with the same approach, only serving women, serving medicines, both working with these compounds and creating this protocol of assessment, preparation, administration and integration, uh, in our own spaces, we both came to the same conclusion over and over again.
[00:09:43] Women don't put sexuality out of place. Don't overdose. They know what to do with fear. They know how to hold you there naturally.
[00:09:52] Greg Kubin: [00:09:52] So is NANA explicitly a platform for women?
[00:09:57] Flor Bollini: [00:09:57] Initially, the role of women uh, is basically to be the practitioner that holds you in that place. And that actually that serves the medicine. The nanas would have a different role, but that's for the second phase.
[00:10:09] Greg Kubin: [00:10:09] Can you talk a little bit about 5-MeO and Iboga just describing what, whether it's your experience or the actual experience on behalf of people who are being healed?
[00:10:20] Flor Bollini: [00:10:20] So these are basically the Everest of psychedelics, right? And they are like the opposite side of the same coin. Being Ayahua, you know, Iboga like the longest and the strongest. And it's kind of in my experience was kind of like virtual reality inside your head when at the same time 5-MeO is just a rocket to unconditional love in which if you do it in progressive dosing yourself, you smoke yourself to enlightment, to self realization, and is the only compound that can fully dissolve the ego.
[00:11:01] Um, the burgeoning properties of iboga are also like very recommended for addiction. And it's also very strong in the feedback about, you know, ego confronting part of the self. Is like kind of a gorilla, like a father that common bring it down. But at the same time I felt it was like, like hermaphrodite because it also had a lot of feminine qualities in itself.
[00:11:25] Um, this is the most complex to integrate because it takes so many days to fall asleep. Normally the sessions are two days and you don't fall asleep when you finish that first sessions. Like with Ayahuasca, you stay awake. And so sometimes it'd take you four or five days to fall asleep since you started the journey.
[00:11:45] The challenge on top of that is that you go to REM sleep while you are awake. So then you cannot distinguish what is the dream? What is being awake? Right? Imagine that I would take pictures to see if it'd come in the picture then I would know that it was a dream or not. That kind of. And so, um, it can be very, um, earth shattering, um, experiences, uh, and also has the property of, you know, remove the withdrawals from opiates.
[00:12:14] So if some of like, if not the most effective way of trip, the opioid withdrawals and combined with 5-MeOs, they go in these very complex cases. They go very well first because they are both brain regenerative. That's really brain regenerative and medicines and also 5-MeO is kind of, if well served, it's like just, it's a pool of unconditional love that you are just like embedded after their roughness of the experience of iboga, where you just have to surrender and let go, because you can't even move their body.
[00:12:51] without being nauseous. You cannot even walk to the bathroom. They have to walk you. You know, it's like a very,
[00:12:59] Greg Kubin: [00:12:59] Okay. So Flor gave a spiritual and physical description of 5-MeO-DMT and Iboga. Here's some more context. Iboga is was a West African shrub that has traditionally been used in healing ceremonies and initiations by the Bwiti religion in West Africa. Ibogaine is the naturally occurring psychoactive chemical in Iboga. In a large dose ibogaine induces, a highly intense
[00:13:24] psychedelic state. It has a waking dream state effect that is reported to help people to view difficult experiences in an objective way, helping the closure of unresolved emotional conflicts, which is often a reason for severe substance use disorders. People with substance use disorders find that larger doses of ibogaine can significantly reduce withdrawal from opiates and temporarily eliminate substance related cravings
[00:13:50] even after a single. Some aspects of Ibogaine's pharmacology and effects are understood while others remain unknown. What we do know is that ibogaine can increase levels of certain proteins that encourage the development of new neurons and periods of neuroplasticity in the brain. As you heard from Flor, the effects are usually far from pleasant.
[00:14:13] The physical effects can include lack of coordination, nausea, vomiting, sensitivity to light and sound, tremors and cardiac effects but it's effective. Now let's quickly talk about 5-MeO-DMT, which is also referred to as the God molecule. It is a potent psychedelic found in the secretions of the Colorado river toad.
[00:14:35] Basically it comes from a toad's venom. Is also present in some plants and can be made synthetically. It should be noted that although similar, in some ways, 5-MeO-DMT is different than the N,N DMT molecule found in Ayahuasca. 5-MeO-DMT is most often smoked using a pipe. The active effects kick in within a couple of seconds after inhalation and the peak of the experience lasting 30 minutes or less. As with all psychedelics, experiences can vary greatly with 5-MeO-DMT.
[00:15:10] However, 5-MeO is also called the God molecule because big experiences of unity and interconnectedness can be big hallmarks of the very short journey.
[00:15:23] So these compounds today are not prescribable or legal in the United States and lots of other countries. Uh, the hope or belief is that at some point in the next few years, that will change.
[00:15:37] So, is the thinking that you start today with compounds like ketamine or cannabis, which are prescribable and over time you're able to then integrate those medicines into the protocol?
[00:15:51] Flor Bollini: [00:15:51] Yeah, and exactly, basically because we develop these protocols to work already with the most difficult compounds. It completely applies to all the softer compounds.
[00:16:01] Right the, the interratial practices that you build around, because also the thing is to develop these bespoke is different than to deliver these at scale and to is good that actually we have time to prepare the system to educate practitioners of the level of care required to actually hold people in this way and not to be traumatic because the medical setting is the last
[00:16:29] place that you need to have these kinds of experiences. Uh, FDA is not regulating and set and setting and dosaging as such, which is the most important thing to make these medicines effective, you know, and not addictive. And so, um, there are so many things that, and that's what we are really working to standarize has created the first protocol for all stakeholders, right?
[00:16:51] Where we break down, what is the one-on-one shaman cores, you know, that anyone should have, including individual patients, psychologists, clinicians, and doctors, and biotech companies. Right? We have big black holes when it comes to preparation and integration. We don't know if we put people back in a SSRIs after we give them mushrooms.
[00:17:13] I'm like you explode people head with serotonin syndrome if you do that.
[00:17:20] Greg Kubin: [00:17:20] Serotonin syndrome is when too much serotonin builds up in the body and results in too much nerve cell activity. It can be caused by the interaction of two drugs that affect serotonin, such as psilocybin and SSRIs. Which are antidepressant medications that stand for selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, Prozac and Zoloft are some of the most popular SSRIs. Symptoms of serotonin syndrome include rapid heartbeat, fever
[00:17:48] and in rare cases, death. While low serotonin levels are thought to be a cause of depression, too much, serotonin can be dangerous. Therefore it's recommended that patients on SSRIs taper off their medication before engaging in certain kinds of psychedelics.
[00:18:06] Flor Bollini: [00:18:06] Do these at scale, and to have practitioners, you know, like doctors that are injecting today
[00:18:12] ketamine, which it was like, one of the top five experiences, psychedelics experiences of my life, but I have over maybe three, 400 ceremonies under my belt, and I was shouting asking for a hand and shouting set and settings, because the last place where you want to fully dissolve and have a dissociative experience is in a room alone, surrounded by computers and noises and people on their phone that have no idea or reference of the place where you are going.
[00:18:43] And so, definitely ketamine is so much easier to work with than all the rest. And especially for 5-MeO and Iboga, right? But the importance to assessing the individually. Yes, mentally. Yes, physically, but also emotionally and spiritually is key. Especially to the Terminator dose. And also who says what is a dose. The heroic dose is not a standard dose.
[00:19:12] Greg Kubin: [00:19:12] A heroic dose means a very large quantity of hallucinogens, that results in a very powerful trip. Legendary writer, speaker, and psychonaut Terence McKenna coined the term saying that a heroic dose is five plus grams of psilocybin mushrooms. So what happens when you take that much? Anecdotal accounts include accessing other planes of reality, big breakthroughs, and very strong visuals to say the least.
[00:19:41] Some people experience synesthesia where information meant to stimulate just one of your senses stimulates several of your senses, but keep in mind that the effect of a heroic dose can also include a lack of coordination, a heightened sense of confusion, and although sometimes transformational, some pretty challenging experiences.
[00:20:02] Flor Bollini: [00:20:02] And the idea that you aren't respectful. If you are not doing a heroic dose, as it was portrayed in the sixties is also wrong. It completely reverberates according the correct dose is the minimum effective dose. And if a person doesn't believe in God, never had a musical experience in your life, are completely neurotic in your head have been for 20 years on psychiatric drugs.
[00:20:26] Their home, their head, their chemistry is all a mess. So you cannot blast them out into to zero to a hundred the first time. There's no need. We, women naturally don't serve like this. And so these maternal instincts is what we bring back at NANA, right, to the table, kind of this role of the priestess, the wise woman, but, you know, Nana and the oldest traditions was considered like the highest form of female power.
[00:20:55] And it's also a deity representing the nourishing, you know, the feminine nurture. And that is really what I feel the, the world needs the most today, you know, to help us heal our heart. And once we start addressing that in the medical setting, then we may be able to start addressing the mental disorders of such.
[00:21:17] Greg Kubin: [00:21:17] You had also touched upon, you know, making the transition from, uh, you know, curandera or. shaman to entrepreneur, uh, probably not a very typical career path. Uh, I don't see that on LinkedIn too often. So,was curious how you're navigating that part and like any learnings that you've been forming along the way.
[00:21:39] Flor Bollini: [00:21:39] Great question. Um, and now like one step at a time, trusting yourself, surrounding yourself. As I learned in politics with some of the best in the world, you know, and a politician cannot know about everything, but you have the best advisors and then you just trust your intuition. You have those sensors inside and no personal work that one has done as to heal oneself, completely applies to entrepreneurship, right?
[00:22:07] To the ability to take feedback, to learn, to listen, to take responsibility, to turn pain into power that you are going to make mistakes that only in know no one learns in the party. And that is actually the mistakes that you make will become your strength.
[00:22:22] Greg Kubin: [00:22:22] What do you foresee as being, you know, the biggest challenge of making that a reality?
[00:22:30] Flor Bollini: [00:22:30] It's been really hard to be a woman, um, in a high-profile startup in this space. Um, you know, um, very few extraordinary men. You know, like come to help and the change from being a healer to be, you know, um, from a medicine woman, let's say to be a business woman, it's been tough. It's been really rough. So I'm learning to play the game, you know.
[00:22:58] Greg Kubin: [00:22:58] Where do you find the strength internally to counter some of the adversity that you feel?
[00:23:05] Flor Bollini: [00:23:05] I pray harder every day. I pray to my ancestors, to my guardians, to my protectors, to the deities, you know, to IFA that is what Ayahuasca send me to school. And so that has been my secret power. And that is empowerment to make me better, to make me stronger, to keep on going and knowing that if thousands or millions of people hopefully can change their life because I didn't give up, that give me the strength to go until the day I die.
[00:23:37] Greg Kubin: [00:23:37] So, if you are developing a protocol and some educational sort of support behind it, are you going to need to navigate the FDA clinical trial process?
[00:23:51] Flor Bollini: [00:23:51] What we are actually calling transformative medicine is all the experiential component of these medicines where FDA doesn't regulate. That makes sense?
[00:24:01] So. The, the main risk. The main challenge is also the biggest opportunity because it's so loose where you need to set a ketamine clinic is so loose. Uh, you know, like the guidance they're given actually none that actually okay. Less than. Create a new canvas, let's paint a completely new experience, which actually is required.
[00:24:27] You cannot compromise, uh, to feed these medicines and these experiences into Western medicine. So that is what we are aiming to bring to the table if that makes sense. And I think that the opportunity that FDA utilizing a drug that normally keeps you asleep and not understanding the complexity that it has to have that experience at wake is really on one hand,
[00:24:53] like it really explained that they don't understand this drugs and that actually all the rest of compounds are kind of going to be addressed with the same kind of bar.
[00:25:03] Greg Kubin: [00:25:03] Flor is talking about ketamine. In episode one, we chatted with Mindbloom's CEO and covered ketamine's properties at length. But as a reminder, ketamine has historically been used as a general anesthetic.
[00:25:15] Flor Bollini: [00:25:15] And if we don't, we don't even know how to integrate properly ketamine, and we are realizing hardcore psychoactive experience is like, mushrooms, iboga, I'm like, Oh my Lord, I better hurry up and really push through all the drama, like, you know? Yeah.
[00:25:35] Greg Kubin: [00:25:35] Interesting. So what kind of team are you looking to build?
[00:25:40] Flor Bollini: [00:25:40] Um, actually it's been happening quite organically and they're kind of coming, um, kind of with like.
[00:25:49] They are showing up as, you know, one there. Like cosmic interventions is the only way of putting it because they're like, just fit so incredibly. I tried, you know, maybe to do more how I've been told before that I needed and then eventually, was like, no, let me just do this organically. Like kind of get the flow.
[00:26:08] And so, um, right now, um, We are like, uh, looking more kind of building initially the female team, um, and the team, like to be also more, more female oriented. Um, we, we have certain policies now of taking some time before we onboard people into the team, you know, to see that there is a cultural fit as well, and they are doing their practices.
[00:26:32] It's it's, it's it's complex because, you know, to have experience in the space experience with compounds, you know, a high level of experience in this very specific area.
[00:26:42] Greg Kubin: [00:26:42] So one, this kind of gets back to an earlier part of our conversation, but just a thought that I would love to unpack. Which is, I'm just thinking about your previous experience in the shamonic role and now in the business entrepreneurial role and what you're building, there's a physical component to it at least of designing the spaces, but then there's also a software component to it.
[00:27:07] Right? You're. Creating software that helps with people, both preparing for the trip, administering the trip, integrating the tripper. They're not just trip, but these experiences. And so I guess what I'm interested in is that kind of contrast between the current you, which is around software. Among other things and contrasting that with the healing and sitting for someone in a ceremony where it's very, in-person, it's very IRL.
[00:27:37] And I'm curious how you think about the contrast between those two worlds or overlap in those worlds or is that something you'd think
[00:27:45] Flor Bollini: [00:27:45] So before I, when it, between when I left politics and during the whole time that I, um, step up to serve medicine in that, in I learned a lot, in, uh, online education, uh, online education for ICT curriculums in developing countries, kind of what was going inside, the one laptop initiative for kids.
[00:28:05] Right. And kind of that is when I saw the power of technology to create online curriculums that can translate so fast and at scale. And suddenly you don't even have to go through education ministers to approve what you teach in there. And so kind of that is what now more than building software, we are building an educational
[00:28:25] platform is more like a production company from that perspective, if you may, and is more as what we should have learned at school, you can use the whole protocol of NANA without using the psychoactive. Psychoactive is kind of the booster that wakes you to the reality one time. And so psychoactive is just one off it's only
[00:28:45] 30% of the whole process, but we want to give it to the whole world. We want one that everyone can plug and play one time, pay 150 bucks. That's it it's the same that you'd go to one session with a therapist and hopefully this therapist would have gone through that themselves as well. So they also going have the insight and if they want the advanced courses of how they can support someone that is going through that. And then you have a roadmap to follow. So you are not repeating yourself as a parrot. You know, when you're a practitioner you're just repeating yourself again, and you have no tools and people look at you and now what I do, and you have nothing to give them more than your time.
[00:29:21] I kind of improvise with links and videos, and this and now actually to have the money, the structure and the team to really design all that content and put it out there and kind of open. So we are even learn of building our initial course in an LMS, you know,
[00:29:39] Greg Kubin: [00:29:39] LMS stands for learning management system, it's software for delivering and managing educational courses.
[00:29:44] Flor Bollini: [00:29:44] It doesn't matter. I don't need to spend $2 million on an app. You know that then you throw it to the trash because you realize that none of that is where you need it. Let me first. Ride the path. Let me show you exactly. Let's test it. Let's redefine it. We are now creating at scale something we've been doing bespoke, right?
[00:30:02] So you need that time to really find without costing you a fortune. And so that's where the collaboration really becomes interesting of, you know, how are we going to get this done?
[00:30:16] Greg Kubin: [00:30:16] Any parting thoughts or wishes for the space?
[00:30:19] Flor Bollini: [00:30:19] To know that even one person is better because of you having put your sweat is really what I wish in my heart for the whole industry and this whole space. It has been the most rewarding, you know, honor of my life to be entrusted to serve these medicines.
[00:30:36] And I want to empower as many people as I can to do the same because every woman has it inside and every man has it inside in the bottom of your heart, you know, to help each other thrive. And only then is when we are going to get out of the mess and realize heaven and earth, and know when we went to go to Mars. It's an unprecedented time to really come together, you know. It's showtime.
[00:31:09] Greg Kubin: [00:31:09] Flor is a spiritual business person who defies stereotypes of what a founder looks like. She has compiled everything she knows about psychedelic medicine and is making it available through NANA. In the coming years, a ton of people will be having their first psychedelic experiences. So we could see NANA becoming a valuable resource for psychedelic treatments
[00:31:27] that lack FDA protocols. NANA has an interesting opportunity to influence the way a new generation experiences psychedelic medicine.
[00:31:53] This is Business Trip, a podcast about psychedelic entrepreneurship. If you liked this episode, you can help us by subscribing to the podcast and leaving us a review. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @businesstripfm. And if you're building a company in psychedelics, or you're looking to get more involved in this space
[00:32:11] send me an email at email@example.com. I'm your host. Greg Kubin. Business Trip is created by me and Matias Serebrinsky. Producer and engineer is Jonathan Davis. Music came from Blue Dot Sessions and our theme music is by Dorian Love. This is Business Trip. Thanks for tripping with us. See you next time.
[00:32:43] You're not hypothetically saying you want to pitch the Pope on psychedelic therapy. Like you want to pitch the
[00:32:49] Flor Bollini: [00:32:49] Yeah, it's no. I would love to serve him 5-MeO. I actually have a strong intuitions can say that on his 30th, when he was in exile in Cordoba, he